The Beyond Pain Podcast

Episode 81: Why Motivation Isn’t Enough: Pain, Goals, and Sustainable Behavior Change

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Summary

In this episode of the Beyond Pain podcast, hosts Joe Gambino and Joe Lavaca discuss the significance of goal setting, particularly at the start of the new year. They reflect on their personal aspirations, including the desire to retire by 40, and explore the dynamics of setting and achieving goals with clients. 

The conversation delves into the role of motivation, the importance of actionable steps, and strategies for maintaining motivation over time. The hosts emphasize the need for accountability and the value of community support in achieving fitness and health goals. 

They conclude with reflections on the nature of goal setting and the importance of continuous improvement.

Takeaways

  • Setting goals is crucial for personal and professional growth.
  • It's okay to coast without a goal sometimes.
  • Motivation ebbs and flows; it can't be relied upon solely.
  • Action must precede motivation for sustainable change.
  • Small wins can build momentum towards larger goals.
  • Accountability partners can enhance commitment to fitness.
  • Financial investment can increase motivation to achieve goals.
  • Rewards can help maintain motivation over time.
  • Goals should be open-ended to encourage continuous improvement.
  • Community support is vital for achieving health and fitness goals.

Joe Gambino (00:43)
Welcome back into the Beyond Pain podcast. I am one of your hosts, Joe Gambino, and I'm here with our other host, Joe Lavaca. You can find us both on Instagram at Joe Gambino, DPT for myself and at strength and motion underscore PT for Lavaca over there. Podcast is on Instagram, Beyond Pain podcast and on YouTube, cups of Joe underscore PT. We're back. is 2026. Joey boy, how you doing?

Joe Gambino (01:09)
I am doing well, feeling good, our first official recording in the new year. And I got to tell you, those two weeks off made me really start to contemplate what retirement would be like. So if those listening could like and share and give us those reviews, because my ultimate goal as a person was to retire by 40 and I'm 39 now and the clock is ticking. We got six months.

Joe Gambino (01:21)
Hahaha.

Joe Gambino (01:36)
And those two weeks were really, really conducive for me, Joe, really conducive.

Joe Gambino (01:40)
Yes, yes, I agree. We both have very similar goals. I don't know if we've even talked about this before, but my goal also was to retire by 40. So I guess if we don't get the reviews, we're both going to have to just go into early retirement and let things play out from there. We're going to start a whole new retirement podcast. How to not go crazy while in retirement in your 40s.

Joe Gambino (01:44)
You

⁓ I like that one. I like that

one. I like that. Like, there's gotta be some type of play of like tipping your toes in the sand, like, Joe's in the sand or something like that. You know, you see what I did there?

Joe Gambino (02:12)
I do, I do see what you did there. Philosopher Joe back in business today.

Joe Gambino (02:17)
I think while we're talking about our long-term goals, goals are a big thing in the beginning of the year, Mr. Gambino, not only for us, but for our clients. And I like having new conversations with people at the beginning of the year, just to refocus our thoughts and our efforts. Sometimes I've...

Joe Gambino (02:36)
you

Joe Gambino (02:36)
I've been working for people with a few months and I look back and a lot of their goals are like, I want to squat more, I want to run. And we realize we accomplished those things in the year and picking things that are new are often challenging. And I want to know your thoughts about goal setting. And sometimes to me anyway, when I have these conversations with clients, when they are happy and I ask them about their goals.

Joe Gambino (02:46)
Mm.

Joe Gambino (03:01)
I often worry sometimes if it makes it feel like now they're not working towards anything. And I know that's a little bit of a different spin on goal setting, but my hesitation with a client this week, when I started asking her about her new goals, she said, what's wrong with the goals that we have? And I said, there's nothing wrong with the goals we have, but if you look back, we accomplished them. You're back to walking and...

you're doing things around the house. So maybe we can set our sights on something new in 2026." And she was like, well, I don't really have anything. And I could almost tell that maybe my question sort of deflated her a bit. So are goals important? How often should we be revisiting them? And maybe is it just okay for people to be coasting without a goal? Could be some of the points.

that we bring up. But have you had any thoughts like that or hesitations? Because I didn't until this week and I started contemplating it as I was harassing everyone for new goals.

Joe Gambino (04:05)
No, that's fair. think there's always like two camps here in this situation. I think, you know, like you and I, where we would, you know, consider, you know, like when we're thinking about how do we get someone healthier and how we get someone back to something, right? Like it's good for us to have goals. Especially when we start working with somebody, we want to, like I'm a very objective person. I like having goals for myself. And I also like to know, like, I can say at the end of,

whatever time I have working with someone, like these are the things that we were able to accomplish. like, is like, can rehash them. can be proud of them. can celebrate them. Like it's nice when we can say, Hey, we reached a goal, but there are people. I think, you know, once someone reaches those initial goals, I don't think there's anything wrong. it's like another camp with people. It's just, they want to work out to work out. They don't care about performance specifically. you know, they're not training for anything like a marathon or they're not professional athlete.

They just want to stay healthy and just feel good. And I think that's a goal in its own right. So in those cases, you're just making sure that nothing goes backwards and that they just continue to feel like they're making progress in some regard, that they're feeling good and that, you know, their training is fun in essence. So there's nothing wrong with not having goals. I personally like to have goals because I like to like training is I think would be more boring for me. You know, if I'm not like, Hey, I want to like

you know, gain five more pounds or I want to, you know, bench this or whatever it is. So I like to have something set for me to work towards. But again, at the same time, are periods of time, like recently, where I haven't really wanted, like my goal was like, can I just be somewhat consistent because schedules have been off, things have been busy, I have kids, like, so if I don't work out in the mornings, it's hard. I'm also sometimes going to bed a little bit later or being woke up in the middle of the night, so it's hard to wake up in the morning.

So like my goal is like, can I just string together three to four sessions a week? And like, that's really all that I care about at this point, because I know that there will be some progress from there. And then I can, you know, always like revisit these periodically throughout the year.

Joe Gambino (06:07)
Yeah, what was interesting with my clients this week was I almost kind of fell into the gap on my reflections after talking to them that maybe it's better than just like goals emerge on their own because the background goal for a lot of people I work with, especially with the podcasts that are out now and the amount of data on social media and the books are all about longevity, right? I want to...

Joe Gambino (06:13)
Hmm

Joe Gambino (06:32)
You know, live until I'm 103. I want to play with my grandkids, right? Like these are big overarching, really in the future goals. So people are investing now for something that they want to do 40, 50 years down the line. Obviously, it's impossible for you and I to plan 40 to 50 years in advance. knowing the ebbs and flows of life, like you mentioned, you have kids, have a job, have family. Sometimes you get sick. Sometimes your wife gets sick.

Sometimes you have to move, sometimes you get fired, sometimes you get hired, sometimes you do this. There's lots of things over the course of 40 or 50 years that could throw you off this goal of wanting to be living for as long as all time, right? And the other thing I think about with that goal in the GLP-1 conversation of people needing to lose weight, feeling like they have to diet and exercise and do all these different things. And yet, now we have a pill.

or an injection that will largely accomplish that goal for you. A lot of people that I know who've taken GLP-1s have had phenomenal success with them. They feel better. Their energy levels are higher. And in my opinion, by them losing 30, 40, or 50 pounds, that has fit their goal of increased longevity, right? Because we know obesity is one of the biggest drivers of mortality risk, of heart disease, of pain, of cancers.

You no longer fit in that category of obese. Boom. Your goal is now probably figured out, but what if Joe, there's a pill that does the same thing for exercise. You pop a pill and you get the benefit of a 60 minute strength workout. You pop a pill and you get the benefit of a high intensity cardio workout. Are you going to take that pill?

Joe Gambino (08:20)
Yeah man and I think more importantly since our goal is to retire by 40, we need to invent this bill. We'll be good. We'll be real good.

Joe Gambino (08:22)
Hell yeah!

Yeah.

Well, it's interesting when I've thrown that question to like some trainers and other people, especially when I've been teaching, a lot of people are like, no, I wouldn't take that pill because you know, it's about exercise and commitment and showing you can do things. And I was like, are you all insane? I'm assuming that the people who said no to this don't have kids and definitely are not in a long distance relationship and probably don't own a business and probably aren't trying to necessarily grow something. Because if I could take back,

Joe Gambino (08:57)
Yeah.

Joe Gambino (09:00)
six hours of my life a week, maybe more in some cases. That's an extra day, dude. That's a whole extra day of productivity, and I'm still getting shredded, and I'm still getting healthy, and I'm still losing weight, just because the pill let me do it. So Google, if you're listening, please get this pill going for us. But to come back to that goal idea, I think that when I'm pressuring people for goals, because they've accomplished their goals.

Joe Gambino (09:03)
Right.

Right.

Huh.

Yeah.

Joe Gambino (09:26)
rather than just being like, are you happy? Are you feeling consistent? Are you feeling fulfilled? And I think your point was beautiful. Are you having fun? know, like that can be how we just address or filter what we do for a little bit. And then you come in and say, hey, my friend signed up for a 10K. I think I want to run a 10K. Hey, my buddy, you know, deadlifted 300 pounds. I think it'd be pretty cool to chase a 300 pound deadlift. So.

Joe Gambino (09:32)
Mm.

Mm-hmm.

Joe Gambino (09:54)
I think I'm kind of in the camp now of letting clients emerge with their goals rather than kind of like pressing them all the time to update them.

Joe Gambino (10:01)
Yeah.

Yeah, I think one thing as you were talking that made me that I thought about is like, I think you just make it like, uh, and this kind of thing. Now that I'm thinking about it, it's kind of what I do. Um, it's just like an invitation to like share new goals. So like when we check something off the board, it's more of like, well, is there anything else that you want to work towards? You know, and then let them just like a saying like, oh, you have to have these goals. I want to give them that like, okay, well, hey, listen, you're, you know, you were working on this injury.

your knee is feeling better, you're able to run the two miles that you typically like to run and you're kind of back to your normal. Is there something else now that you want to work towards and let them kind of be a collaborative? And if they say no, you then you just leave it at that. Like you don't have to force them into something. And I think maybe to your point, it would lead to like a less deflating conversation. So actually typically like, you know, new year now, I haven't like got to people and say like, Hey, do we have like new goals for 2026?

I just kind of keep these things kind of going year round as people start to check the boxes. And I think maybe that's how we should kind of think about it. And I think for someone listening, you know, if you're someone who doesn't have goals, I think the real time that someone really should be considering like goal setting is if you're one of those people, if you're not sure if something is working for you, if you're maybe in pain and you've tried a bunch of things and you're like, well, I've been doing this and I'm not sure if it's working.

or you're trying to lose weight and you've been doing it for a couple months and you're not sure if it's working. At that point, I think you need to set a goal for a month. Hey, I'm gonna lose five pounds or I want to be able to deadlift 225 pounds again without having lower back pain. And then you can see if the work that you've been doing over the next two months is moving you closer to that or not. And then that will give you a more solidified answer. It's probably not working.

if you have a move closer to your goals. And I think especially with pain, I get a lot of times I'm talking to somebody and they're like, well, I've been doing this and I'm not too sure if it's working. And you should know, right? Because we've talked about this before on the podcast is, hey, well, if you're doing something, you're probably gonna see some short-term relief early on. And then that should start to that window of you feeling better should expand over time.

And if you're just doing something for two, three months and you feel exactly the same and you're not sure if it's working, then it's probably not working. And I think this is where goal setting can really help some of these people.

Joe Gambino (12:30)
Yeah, I liked your question that you threw at your clients. Is there something that you want to work toward? And reflecting on that, the past week asking people, what are your goals for 2026? It feels like a little pressing, right? It almost feels like it's test, right? And maybe that's why I had a connotation with a few people that they maybe were a little bit like, no, I don't really have anything. I didn't think about that.

Because every eight weeks, typically with the programming that we do here at Strength in Motion, that actually is the question I ask everybody. When we're renewing a program, hey, is there anything that you would like to see different? Is there anything that I can do better for you in the next eight weeks or the next eight weeks after that? And then again, that seems to be just a more collaborative conversation, right? So I do appreciate that reframe. And now the people I see next week.

I'll do better. So the people I saw this week, sorry for pressing you and all your goals. probably missed the boat a little bit.

Joe Gambino (13:32)
Yeah. Yeah. I feel like, not everyone is a big, you know, goal setting type of person. So I can see, you know, like, you know, I have it. And then maybe making them feel bad on the back and like, maybe I should have like, is it wrong that I didn't, you know, kind of, kind of things, but this shift here, because you did talk about something interesting before we hopped on here about, having a conversation about motivation and maybe we do this two way one, like, you know,

Is there something that someone listening can do to like help motivate them? Obviously everyone's a little bit more motivated with the start of the year. They want to be able to, you know, maybe they do have some goals, maybe they don't, but you know, a lot of people are getting into the gym and trying to be more fit and get out of pain and be a little bit healthier. And we talked about the goal of longevity, right? That's a big one for people. So how are people, you know, how can people stay motivated? And then maybe shifting this into a conversation, I think it's important is like, should we rely on motivation?

Now motivation is something that kind of in my mind spikes throughout different times. It's high in the new year. It's high when we have a wedding coming up or some big events, but what happens when there's nothing going on or things are stressful and motivation kind of comes down. So I'll let you pick where you want to go with this and we'll take it.

Joe Gambino (14:27)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Yeah, well, motivation, like you said, it ebbs and flows. Motivation is a feeling. Maybe we even can call it or label it an emotion, because it is actually moving you to make a change in your behavior. The problem with motivation is it most often spikes, as you said, with major life events. Having a new baby, we're buying a new house, it's the new year, I'm getting a new job.

Right? Major life events aren't happening, hopefully, all that often for everyone listening, because major life events would connotate that they are important and you are not experiencing them over and over and over again. Now, if we think about this idea of motivation, then ebbing and flowing with major life events, that makes sense, then we can't rely on it to drive behavior all year long. So,

waiting for something like motivation to get you to the gym or to get you to eat different or to get you to sleep better is not going to work because it's not a sustainable feeling. I could want to be happy every day all day long, but I know that that's not realistic. And when I ebb out of happiness into sadness or even tinges of let's say

grief or worry or anxiety, it gives the contrast to my life to be like, wow, well, happiness is really important, but so are these other feelings because they sort of build off of one another. Motivation when you're dieting comes from the fact that, the behavior you agreed or made yourself do,

Joe Gambino (16:18)
Mm-hmm.

Joe Gambino (16:28)
has now resulted in you losing four or five pounds over the course of a month, that result from the behavior you changed should motivate you to continue it. If you want to strength train, you can't be motivated to get stronger in one session because we know that doesn't work. So that's why the goals that we talked about are important when we start these things.

because we wanna have a realist expectation of the behavior we're picking and what it's going, and what its intended outcome is going to be. So I'm gonna get stronger over eight to 12 weeks, we can easily test that. And when you see the results there, that should motivate you to continue. So the action always needs to come before the motivation, in my opinion, not the other way around. And I think that's where people get stuck.

Joe Gambino (17:08)
Mm-hmm.

Mm.

Joe Gambino (17:25)
And I shared that story with you off air before my client who has been consistent this week, really consistent. Actually, I just looked at her training program. She's hit four of five workouts this week and I messaged her this morning and I said, you're doing awesome. Why do you think you are succeeding this week or what's changed? And she wrote back, well, I would tell you that I'm motivated.

Joe Gambino (17:32)
Thank ⁓

Joe Gambino (17:53)
but you already told me I was wrong about that. And it did make me laugh a little bit. And I said to her, no, you can feel motivated, but we don't want to rely on that motivation to continue the behavior you just showed yourself you can do. We wanna now say, how do you feel four weeks later, six weeks later, eight weeks later?

Joe Gambino (17:56)
you

Joe Gambino (18:18)
If the answer is better, stronger, more fit, more confident, then there's your motivation to keep going. So what are your thoughts about that?

Joe Gambino (18:28)
Yeah, no, I agree. think when I'm thinking about someone and like, hey, 2026 is here, I'm motivated, I'm going. I think that people should, there's like four things that you can do to like maintain this or build on the like 2026 momentum, right? It's like, think we talked about this small wins. think like people, when they start their resolutions, they take these big goals, these big chunks. Hey,

Joe Gambino (18:37)
Yeah.

Joe Gambino (18:57)
I want to lose 50 pounds. I'm going to go to the gym seven days a week for one hour sessions. And they haven't been in the gym for months. Like that is a huge jump. And you probably can do that for a month, but then when motivation is not as high, right. And you realize, wow, it's really hard to be in the gym seven days a week because I have kids and a life and a job and all these other things. Well, then disappointment sets in.

And then all of sudden it becomes even harder to be motivated. So I like starting easier. Hey, I haven't been in the gym in a long time. I'm going to do two times a week for 30 minutes. And all of sudden you check the box for four weeks in a row and you're like, wow, I can do this. Now I can do two sessions for an hour or three or four sessions for 30 minutes. And then you keep checking the boxes and that momentum will help you stay motivated. Another way is and I really like this is having like an accountability. When I was working with

Strength Faction, awhile back they termed, it's called an accountability buddy, right? So you get a friend that you're go to the gym with. When you guys are there at the same time, right? You're like, even if you didn't wanna go, you know your friend's gonna be there, so you're gonna go. Like the best training I ever had was when I was, I mean, I was a teenager at the time, 18, 19, 20, but we had such a great group of people that always went to the gym. We were like, hey, we're gonna go to the gym this time, whatever day.

Joe Gambino (19:54)
Yeah, we both did. I remember that.

Yep.

Joe Gambino (20:21)
We all went there, we all pushed each other and there was, there's an extra something, a force you to go when you don't want to go. But then you also have people there to like, Oh, you grabbed fifties for some dumbbell chest press and then look at you like, or they grabbed the 55. You know, maybe, maybe I should do that too. Uh, right. So there's something about having a accountability. Another one was I gained, I wanted to gain some weight and I was like, I want to get to 185 pounds. And it was over a six month period.

Joe Gambino (20:37)
Yeah.

Joe Gambino (20:49)
And I told everybody at the gym I worked with at the time that this was my goal. was 160 pounds at the time. I was going to get to 185. Yeah. I was, was, I was beefy. Um, and I got there, but if I didn't tell, cause I knew the people in the gym, if I did not get there, the amount of shit that I would get from them would be astronomical, you know? So, so it was motivating, right? Like it allowed me and obviously it was.

Joe Gambino (20:55)
I was gonna say, 185 is, that's big for you, brother.

Joe Gambino (21:15)
A different time I was able to eat a whole lot of food because I was in PT school. I was able to carry a bunch of food with me, eat all day. not really realistic when she eat out of PT school, but, for the amount of calories I was consuming, but you know, like that accountability was, was really important for me. Another one I think about is like commitment and not just like you make in the commitment, but having some skin in the game of like a financial commitment. I was listening to something on social media where they invest in like a.

Joe Gambino (21:37)
Hmm.

Joe Gambino (21:42)
going to a more expensive gym. So having a little bit more money to pay for anything, right, will make you and I was actually talking to somebody he wants to get into rock climbing. And he was like, he's like, I don't have the time, my kids do it'd be nice. He's like, I went rock climbing over the holidays, and I bought a $5 pair of rock climbing shoes. And I told him I was like, you know what, you probably should have bought the most expensive pair of rock climbing shoes. Because once you put the money down, you're going to be more likely to get into the gym.

Joe Gambino (22:00)
Ooh, yeah.

Right. ⁓

Joe Gambino (22:09)
to that gym to do some climbing. The $5 pair of shoes is probably gonna be collecting dust in a couple of months because there's no skin in the game, right? So that kind of commitment, know, like getting a coach will create that commitment, right, from unaccountability and that little financial piece, right? But I think the more skin you put in the game, you're like, okay, well now I have to do it. So it kind of builds up some motivation there. And then I think rewards are kind of one of them.

Joe Gambino (22:33)
Yeah.

Joe Gambino (22:36)
Hey, if you do reach a goal that you did, or you did spend, got past the January rush and you're still working out and doing the things into March, like go take yourself on a trip or go buy yourself something nice. Like, you know, do little things like that, that help kind of like that dopamine push up and like something to look forward to. I think is something that can help people stay motivated. So hopefully, I know we're not relying on motivation, but maybe some of these things can help people.

create a little bit more internal motivation or drive some things that will help them stay consistent even when motivation like that like external motivation kind of comes down at the end of this New Year rush. I think these are some ways that people can really continue on that journey and move forward. So I don't know if you have any thoughts or anything to add on that.

Joe Gambino (23:19)
No, that was absolutely beautiful. And every time you were given an example of goal setting, you were linking it to behavior, right? Something actually actionable. And I think what you laid out there is so much more beneficial than a SMART goal. Because SMART goals, for those who are familiar, are goals that are specific, measurable, attainable.

in a realistic timeframe, right? The problem with a SMART goal is that it's just words on paper. I want to get stronger. Okay, that's not necessarily specific. Can you give me something more specific? I wanna get better at pushups. Great. How many pushups can you do? Three. How many more do we want to do? I wanna get to eight. Okay.

judging from your training age and your shoulder and whatever, that seems achievable. How long do you wanna take it to get to eight? I don't know, maybe eight weeks. Okay, that's probably realistic in a relatively time-consuming way. But then what about everything else? So what, like we're gonna build a program that just looks at a pushup and nothing else in your life, as opposed to what you laid out was carrying over consistency.

carrying over community, relationships, sport, action, right? Like all of those different things are way more meaningful. So if people who just listened to Joe are not connecting the dots there and you're laying out smart goals for yourself, please stop. Do something like Joe just mentioned. Tell your friends and family. Do something actionable like joining a gym, Googling where gyms are next to you.

Finding a nutrition coach downloading a free nutrition guide for the new year, right? Just take an action step and I think that will also help drive motivation Rather than scribbling a bunch of words down onto a pad so that's really where my mind jumped and I wanted to bring smart goals into this conversation But I think the way that you framed it was just so perfect. So well done my friend

Joe Gambino (25:36)
Yeah, I think having the combination that you are like you have your goal, right? Like, OK, I created a smore goal. want to run the New York Marathon. You know, that's the goal for the year. And you know you have what you need to do and like you join a run club or like that. There's motivation and there's your community aspect. There's that accountability aspect, right? You hire a coach, you make sure whatever plan you're doing right, you're checking all the boxes and like now when you're starting to add all these things together.

where like the chance of you actually reaching that spark while at the end is going to be there. Cause I can tell you for a fact that I've done many smart goals every year. I always write goals and there are many of them that don't get checked off. And part of it is because there's never been either, either I just put too many on there and that's fine. I don't care if I don't get to them all. I like to get to some of them. But the other is, like, you know, for some goals I do all this stuff and other goals I don't do this stuff. So they become less of a priority and there's no.

surprise at the end of the year, like, oh, I didn't reach these goals. And, you know, there's, there's a clear, clear reason why. So I think that's a, you know, a nice little addition there to, you know, like, don't like, you don't have to have goals. It's always good to have goals. But I think that there are a lot of things that someone can do if they wanted to at least just stay consistent and motivated for, you know, months to come years to come. You know, you need to, you need to start to incorporate some of these things because that internal motivation is not always there. And I can tell you from my own personal experience, that's the case.

Joe Gambino (27:01)
Yeah, well, you know, a goal without a plan is just a wish. So you can wish for things, but unless you actually plan on achieving them, you need some sort of action. And I remember reading, I believe it was a Warren Buffett indirect quote, something he said at a party or a speech or whatever. But he's famous for saying, you know, list like the 10 or 20 things that you want to accomplish, like either in your life personally or professionally. And then

cross out anything below number five. And don't even think of them as like accessory goals. They don't actually matter. Those top three or those top five, those are the only things you should be ascribing to or working towards. And just keep hitting those on repeat to make those three or five goals better and better and better. But I think we get into that habit of listing and listing and listing and prioritizing. And then maybe the fallacy of prioritizing is when we accomplish something,

We crossed it off the list rather than just saying, okay, cool, I have this plan. How do I make this even better? And then keep enhancing those top two or three priorities. So I was reminded of that. think that's where I'll leave it for today. We've talked a lot about goals. I hope it's helpful for people. So if you wanna give us any closing words before we sign off, Joe, please do so.

Joe Gambino (28:17)
No,

no, I like that last point about, you know, not checking off the goal and like, hey, you know, my goal maybe was to run that marathon. know, once you like, I think we kind of like brought this up like, hey, when someone hits a goal, right, there's like nothing left for them, right? Like they don't know if they should set new goals or anything like that. I think it's nice if we kind of leave this open ended and like all of sudden now, like you can you even though you hit this goal is kind of open ended, we're not going to check it off. We can see, can you

Joe Gambino (28:32)
Yeah.

Joe Gambino (28:44)
you know, improve your mild time even further, or can you deadlift even more, or can you lose more weight, or can you do whatever at this point, right? So I really kind of like that as a little take.

Joe Gambino (28:47)
Sure.

All right, perfect. Well, what a good start to the year, my friend. I am looking forward to another wonderful year with you as we approach 100 episodes this year we'll cross. So that is exciting. All right, well, Joe, we love you. Listeners, we love you. Thank you for tuning in for the past 80 or so episodes and we hope to give you another 80 or so more. So peace and love. damn, I always mess it up.

Joe Gambino (29:04)
Bye.

That is very, very exciting. Love you too.