The Beyond Pain Podcast

Episode 25: 3 Tips For Knowing If Your Rehab Plan Is Successful

• Par Four Performance • Episode 25

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Summary
In this episode of the Beyond Pain podcast, hosts Joe Gambino and Joe LaVacca discuss various aspects of rehabilitation, focusing on the frequency of exercises, the importance of prioritizing goals, and how to manage pain effectively. They emphasize the need for consistency in rehabilitation and the role of family involvement in fitness routines. The conversation also touches on the emotional aspects of pain and how to create a supportive environment for recovery.

Takeaways
Exercise frequency varies based on individual needs.

Pain management is crucial in rehabilitation.

Involving family can enhance fitness routines.

Consistency is key to successful recovery.

Prioritize goals to tailor rehabilitation plans.

Small, frequent movements can aid recovery.

Understanding pain as a signal can help manage it.

Creating a supportive environment is essential.

Finding time for exercise is about prioritization.

Using activities in rehab can close the gap to goals.

Joe Gambino (00:01)
Welcome back into the Beyond Pain podcast. I am one of your hosts, Joe Gambino, and I am here with Mr. Backwards Hat Joe Lavaca.

Joe LaVacca (00:11)
I don't know if I love that one. That's just, know, come on, man. You can do better than that. Yeah, come on.

Joe Gambino (00:14)
I can't. No, I don't know. I'm just looking here. It's pretty swag. So I call you Mr. Swaggy Joe-LaVacca Is that better? You like that? You like that? Is that that's that's actually an adjective, not like just wearing a backwards hat. Staying the obvious. I have to start pulling up adjectives to describe people before the episode. Yeah.

Joe LaVacca (00:20)
There you go, that's a little bit better. That's a little bit better.

Yeah, yeah, it's like seeing what, stating what you see.

I think that would be a nice little thing. It kind of gives viewers a little something to look forward to. Like what is, like we are doing the question of the day now, which I really liked. What is the adjective of the day? And then maybe we can even challenge listeners to be like, hey, can you use this adjective to describe someone else in your life today?

Joe Gambino (00:42)
Yeah.

Well, I to start doing some negatives one out there so that this way they feel like they can you know if they're yeah, exactly exactly So I'm gonna have to shit talk you sometimes Joe

Joe LaVacca (00:58)
Yeah, well, you got to keep it balanced.

Well, of course. mean, we want to look we're a fair and balanced podcast first and foremost, right? So, you know, throw it out there, especially when I piss you off about something or I don't do something right. You know, I think that I think I deserve a call out every now and then.

Joe Gambino (01:16)
All right. All right, all right. Maybe we'll have to go back like last last episode and pull out some root words as well and educate the audience and ourselves, because I don't know any root words of anything.

Joe LaVacca (01:23)
There you go. There you go.

I used to know more because I liked, I always liked the fun fact. And when things popped up in conversations with clients, I would be like, well, do you know the root word of diagnoses? It means like best guess based on available information. So even if I was going to tell you what was wrong, it would be a guess. know? Yeah, exactly. Good. How do people find us, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to cut you off there. I was just, you know.

Joe Gambino (01:48)
Slauze for Joe over here.

You can, well, if you're listening to this podcast, you already found us, but, you can also find this on Instagram at Joe Gambino DPT for myself and at strength and motion underscore PT for Lavaca over there. this podcast is also on YouTube cups of Joe underscore PT and on Instagram as well, beyond pain podcast over there. There's the application form. If you do want to work with this, if you need any help.

Joe LaVacca (01:59)
Yeah, it's fair. It's fair.

Joe Gambino (02:25)
You can fill that out. are more than happy to help. And if you just want to have a conversation, you can DM us on Instagram. More than happy to do so. Welcome back in Joe.

Joe LaVacca (02:36)
Happy to be here. I'm excited for another conversation with you. Looking forward to the weekend. Me and Avery are gonna go on a little hike and I'm sure hear her bitching and complaining for two or three hours and then I'll get her lunch and maybe throw a little ice cream in there and then the world will be balanced. So we see we were talking about balance, right? I'm gonna torture her for two or three hours and then we buy her ice cream, we end on a high note and then she thinks hiking with dad is fun.

Joe Gambino (02:45)
I'm fun.

Ha ha ha ha.

balance.

Joe LaVacca (03:06)
because there's a reward after it. So you'll figure this out as your beautiful daughter, Lily gets older and all the little tricks of the trade to bribe her. But you're pretty good at that already. I've seen you in action for the weekend. You're good at it. You got it going on, man. You got it going on.

Joe Gambino (03:20)
Mm -hmm. Well, thank you. We'll see. We'll see how it goes. We'll see how it goes. She will keep us on our toes, that's for sure.

Joe LaVacca (03:28)
They all do, man. They all do. And everyone told me girls do it more than boys. You will be one of my go -to sources of information for that fairly soon. But for right now, my data set is yes, that is correct.

Joe Gambino (03:31)
haha

I will I will keep you posted with how how that goes Olivia is already Becoming sneaky she thinks she can pull one over on you at this point and mostly revolved around food Mostly revolved around food. You know, you'll give her she'll ask for a cookie or whatever and you give her a piece and then all of a sudden She'll be eating it and then she'll put it somewhere where you can't see it and then ask for more I'm like, hold on. I saw you put that over there

Joe LaVacca (03:57)
yeah, I watched her in action too. Yeah, I watched her in action too. Mm -hmm, yeah, no she's...

Yeah, of course, of course. Yeah.

Joe Gambino (04:15)
and I take it out. Like she'll put it like in the cup holders of her car seat. I could have more and then, you know, and then she'll be pulling out extra pieces. Yeah. So, yeah, she's she's she's getting it already. She's working, working the system. But you have the question of the day for today. So let's let's let's hear it.

Joe LaVacca (04:21)
Yeah, drop that one. Drop that one. I don't know where it is.

Yeah, it's quick, man. It's quick. It is quick. It is quick. I do.

I do stem from a couple of client interactions this week. As September rolls around, evals typically pop up on the schedule a little bit more lives are, you know, kind of normalizing everyone's back in school back in rhythm. So in almost every one of the evals I had this week, which is probably about four or five, I would say everyone had a very similar specific question. Okay, I understand what's going on now. Thanks for everything.

you're giving me all these exercises or ideas to do, how often do I need to do them? And I think that upon reflection, that's probably a question that pops up more than likely at every single initial interaction. So that's the question of the day, Joe. When you are doing an initial evaluation with someone and somebody thanks you for all your services and your wisdom,

and then states, well, what do do now? How often do I have to do this? What is your advice to those people?

Joe Gambino (05:43)
My advice is to quit their full -time job because they now have anyone.

Joe LaVacca (05:46)
You're not getting paid for.

Joe Gambino (05:51)
Yeah, exactly. It's volunteer work now. It really depends on what we're working on and what the response is. So I don't have a clear cut answer for this. There's a couple of ways I think about this. If we find something that makes their pain significantly better, then it is do it as much as physically possible throughout every single day because

Joe LaVacca (05:53)
It's volunteer work.

Joe Gambino (06:19)
We're just trying to calm down the system. It's nothing that's going to take you a long time. It's usually things that you can do while at work, while picking up your kids from school, while watching TV at night or reading a book. Like you can easily sprinkle in these things. And only thing that we're trying to do is calm the system. So the more repetition we can do, the more likely it is to keep the pain from coming back to the point from when you came into that first session. Other than that,

You know, again, then the exercises really depend on the goal and what we're trying to accomplish and how much work do we need to kind of put into that tissue? Typically, you know, and really the way that I look at it is I usually just ask the person like, how much time do you have to devote to this stuff? Do you have five minutes a day? Do you have 30 minutes twice a week? Like, what do these windows look like? And then we just fit it into that stuff because nothing is

Joe LaVacca (07:06)
Totally.

Joe Gambino (07:19)
More puts us in more of an uphill battle than giving them so many things to do that they can't Physically do it within their daily life and then they just don't do it not consistent and then it's like a whole snowball effect from there which gets them hard to get back on track so it is it varies individual I don't know what the low -hanging fruit would be that also different for people. It really just depends on how they're responding to things

And then am I looking to make any sort of major change for something? If I'm looking for major changes that need to happen, I'm going to ask for more frequency. If we're looking at more, we're just trying to make things a little bit better, we're more maintenance, then those things are going to drop in frequency significantly. So I would say that there's going to be more of an upfront time -ish commitment. And then as things start to feel better, as things are moving better than that commitment level, certainly we'll drop off. You don't need to do it.

at a high level forever, so to speak. So I don't know if that answers your question. I don't know if that makes anyone listening feel like I gave a real answer on that one, but.

Joe LaVacca (08:23)
You

I think it was a very political answer, Joe. I think it is appreciated, but maybe I'll throw in a little bit more thoughts too and we can dive into deeper nuances. initially I wrote down a couple of things that you said, right? I think priority is what's important for me. And if we start with maybe the acute side of things, right? Cause this is where, you know, a couple of people coming in this week.

acute pain, really concerned, hey, you know what, got a trip next week, I'm really worried about it. I'm in so much pain, but then I do something, I feel a little bit better, and then the pain comes right back. What the hell's going on? How often do I have to do this? So I think it really depends on, so if pain is our priority, then I'm going to probably educate people as, hey, pain right now is like an emotion. Let's think about it like your thirst and your hunger.

You get thirsty multiple times a day and you keep drinking. You get hungry multiple times a day and you eat. Why do you do those things? Your body gives you a signal. You initiate a behavior and then you try to remedy that signal. So right now we're going to move like you eat. If you think that your pain is gonna go away and stay away after just moving once, well,

That would be like saying my thirst is gonna go away after drinking just one cup of water in the morning, or my hunger is gonna go away for the day after just having breakfast. It always comes back. And people seem to gravitate to that idea, and it sort of initially makes sense where, okay, I can now see myself, or at least a reason why, I'd have to do this multiple times a day. Now, with the pain being in one bucket, if, like you said, we're trying to make

range of motion changes, right? Maybe pain isn't as much of a priority or it's kind of settling down. Then, yeah, I'm going to try to compartmentalize and say, I'd love for you to do this mobility work every day if you can, if there's no barriers in your schedule or things that we really need to acknowledge or worry about. But then I'm going to be ultra specific. I'm going say, I want you to do this twice a day, but I want you to do it for maybe 60 to 90 seconds twice a day. Do you think?

that that sounds reasonable. And I'll always kind of throw it back into their court. Like, do you think two minutes twice a day sounds reasonable to you? Do you think that's something that you can achieve? And 99 to 100 % of the time, people are going to say, well, yeah, that sounds totally reasonable. So then we're off in that kind of range of motion bucket or like the big change bucket, like just try to think about more behaviors and habits, behaviors and habits. But then a lot of people will come in and tell me and you,

hey, well, I need to get stronger, right? And, you know, my hips are weak, this is weak, this is weak. Now, whether or not we confirm that in the appointment, pain always, you know, kind of decreases muscle performance a little bit. So people could even feel weak, even if they aren't quote unquote weak. But if then we're gonna go back to just general strength and conditioning principles. How often do I train a week? How often do you train a week? Or maybe each body part. Maybe it's two times a week, maybe three if you have it.

Can we do two to three sets of something two to three times a week? Make sure those sets are pretty challenging. They work you to a certain rep range. They work you to a certain feeling. And then when we, again, total that up for that specific priority or that quality, hey, do you think it's reasonable to do this two or three times a week for maybe when you factor in rest, it's gonna cost you five or 10 minutes, right?

So I think with all this, how often do I have to do it? I always bring it back to what is the first priority on our list that we think is gonna help you feel better. If it's pain, hey look, sorry, you're gonna probably have to do this as much as possible. It's gonna feel like you are just on the floor doing trunk rotations and cat cow probably every 20, 30 minutes. If it's range of motion, I'm gonna break it down into maybe a little bit more chunks within the day. And if it's maybe strength or power or this, I'm gonna break it up into a little bit more chunks throughout the week.

So what do you think about that in terms of prioritizing different ideas of people?

You're muted, buddy.

Joe Gambino (13:01)
I did it again, Joe. know, I know. And so what I was saying is I pretty much agree with what you said there, kind of bringing up the one addition I was saying there is a common thing as we're kind of working through with things with people is that the movements we give them can either create soreness or sometimes low level pain. And in those cases, I would also break them apart with a few days enough time to let the

Joe LaVacca (13:03)
It's once a week. It's just once a week. That's okay.

Joe Gambino (13:30)
tissues come back to their normal baseline. So whatever that may be two days, that may be one day, whatever that is, and then you kind of come back into it the next day. And then you're just going to constantly rinse and repeat until that soreness or that low level pain doesn't happen anymore. And then we know that that tissue adaptation started to take place. So that's the other one where, you know, more spaced out based on how things are feeling, because that would be like, we're really challenging the tissue now at this point and doing something daily.

can potentially just up that pain response if we're not giving us some tissue recovery. So I would want a little break there.

Joe LaVacca (14:03)
Yeah. Well, what do you think about maybe this kind of build up a question too? You know, people feel like they have to do something at either specific times or specific days during the week because I haven't gotten the full text of this article yet, but I do have it saved and flagged that a study comparing weekend warriors, right? Doing strength training or kind of condensing their training versus people who spread it out.

kind of yielded, at least initially at first read through the abstract, not much difference in terms of strength gains or overall improvement. So I think there was this mindset with clients with, I could only do this Saturday and Sunday, and that's bad. I know I need a day of rest in between, but now I'm sort of looking forward to reading this article and how they broke this out because maybe that isn't the case. do you...

thinking about the scheduling and barriers that you mentioned before, if someone's like, Joe, the only time I could do this is Saturday and Sunday morning. Are you cool with that? Do you let them roll with that? Or will you say, hey, you know what? Give me two minutes on Tuesday. Give me another three minutes on Thursday. Give me anything. But is it important to space that out? Or are you going to let them roll with

Joe Gambino (15:19)
I would let them roll with that as far as having like the mate, like, you know, maybe like a bigger chunk of movement that needs to happen. You know, maybe that's like a 15 minute routine or whatever it is that they need. but depending on where they are, and you know, I'm a person where it's like, well, if you did that and then your pain doesn't come back and you're feeling better than we definitely don't need to add anything else because you're getting, you know, things that are, that need to happen or happening.

But I would likely have like the this is you know, we talked about this I don't know how many times but I always like to tie Some sort of movement that we're trying to improve in as the goal. So then we would have a check and balance Okay, hey, you you do this on Saturday and Sunday Everything's feeling good if by like Wednesday you realize like movement is moving backwards and you're not moving towards You know keeping that kind of goal that we have Moving in a direction where the next time we meet you're gonna be in a better place

then we're gonna need to take like the one or two big hitters that make the most change and sprinkle that in throughout the week. And it's pretty, I mean, if it's like a five minute thing and you really can't find time for it, to me, it's a priority thing, all right? You're just not prioritizing five minutes of movement. You can find a five minute gap anywhere to do something. And usually I will try to find a movement that you don't need any equipment for, you don't need to get on the floor for stuff like that, because this way, when you're like,

waiting online, you're doing whatever, like maybe you're working, like I'm working with someone who's a nurse and she's at the hospital all day, she can't just get down on the floor. We're gonna find things that you can just like go in an empty room and do one or two things for a couple minutes and then get back to your job and that's all we need. And that's what I'm gonna try to help them kind of figure out so they can sprinkle a little bit more in. But again, if...

The Saturday, Sunday stuff is making them feel better and they're not getting any increasing symptoms going back to that. like, cause the last thing you want is like Saturday, Sunday, they feel better by next Saturday, Sunday. They don't really need the exercises to do it again. Then you're just kind of going through the cycle of like, I feel bad Wednesday, Thursday, Friday. I feel good Saturday, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday. And you're just doing that week over week. They're likely just going to be kind of stuck there. So you're to have to start to make time for movement other places. context depending.

Joe LaVacca (17:37)
Yeah, think it's always context dependant That's what makes this stuff fun. And that's what we can talk about 100 different scenarios. I do appreciate what you said, though, about people not maybe making the prioritization for five minutes a day. And you can always find five minutes. That is kind of a common mantra. The way I've kind of flipped that conversation with people, rather than maybe kind of having that, like, well, hey, this is kind of your fault connotation to it, is...

This is good, right? If you're telling me that you can't prioritize the five minutes at the end of the week, then this probably isn't as bad as you think it is. Because if it was bad, if you were suffering, if you were really unable to do the things that really were important to you, trust me, you'd find time, right? Because they were important. But I think when people initially come in with their story, regardless of if it's acute or chronic, right? It is personal to them. It really does affect them.

And I think as human beings, we let emotions sort of get the best of us. We all do that. And because we're reacting to those feelings in the moment, maybe the picture we paint is that, wow, my life is in complete shambles. I can't do anything. And I want to fix myself. And I want to do this stuff. But I can only do it Saturday and Sunday. And then I feel better for the three, four days. But I just can't find time anywhere else to do it. I'm like, OK. Well, remember we talked about prognosis?

you know, maybe it's going to take you six to 12 weeks to get this better for you or for us, we're probably looking more at that 12 week mark. Unless you want to try to get a couple more signals in unless you can try to get a couple more signals in, then maybe we can start to bump that timeline down by a few weeks, just because we're signaling that tissue, you're creating behaviors, you're changing your mindset. So if we have, you know, a 12 week

and you're only doing, let's say, two inputs a week, that's 24 inputs, and then I compare you to someone who's doing three inputs a week, well guess what, by eight weeks, they're already at 24 inputs, so that's more than you at 12, or the same as you at 12, and they did it a month sooner. Do you think they might have an advantage? And then it's like, yeah, because math just makes sense for a lot of people. So breaking it down that way, I sort of would,

typically say the same thing I still do to people when they kind of need a little bit more truth or honesty is like, well, you're just not making the time and like, I can do cars or an isometric as I'm talking to Avery about her day from school. And she knows my shoulder hurts. So she doesn't question it. But because I'm still able to do both, I can stay engaged with her and do like my shoulder workout and

You know, with Lily there, I've seen you post on Instagram, like she's in the garage with you sometimes walking around. She's got her little Fisher Price, you know, weight set, right? Make your kids a part of this, right? Everybody talks about kids and childhood obesity and how they're all lazy and they only want to do their iPads and their iPods and this and that. And then we reflect that by limiting our behavior and our gym time and our runtime because, we don't have the time. And then we wonder why our kids do it. So bring them into it.

Trust me, they will have fun. You have to do stuff on the floor? Shit, roll around with them. Have them stack cars on you as you're doing a plank. Have them put their blocks on you as you're doing your hip cars or whatever and try not to make the blocks fall. Now it's more fun for both of you and you're still getting what you need. I don't know, how do we encourage people to make more time? Is there an answer for that? I'm not sure.

Joe Gambino (21:18)
No, I mean, that's that's habit building and, you know, person's desire. But to your point with with getting your kids involved, I have a client now and she's, know, she's doing great. But she's like, yeah, my son's, you know, like doing push ups with me and like all these things, right? Like, so the kids get involved, they enjoy it. I Liv loves running around the gym and she's like hanging from the bar now and like she loves doing stuff like that. So I think there's there's a lot of.

Joe LaVacca (21:37)
Yeah, that's great.

Joe Gambino (21:46)
You know, if you want to get your kids involved in that, just think having them around and seeing it will make it more likely when they're older to do it. So I want to kind of, you know, be that pillar for, for Olivia, so to speak. So, but I think, you know, with where things are, you know, another thing that we were kind of going to talk about is like, how long do you need to do them for? And I think that might also help people in this kind of thing. Like when we're talking about like needing to find as like whatever time we can is usually in the beginning of rehab, it's because we need to make the changes. When things start to feel better.

two times a week, three times a week, all that stuff starts to make sense, because usually you're working on things that take some time to adapt. You're working hard enough where your tissues can use some rest recovery, and you don't need a whole lot of input at that point to start to make changes. So I think that's also kind of like a way to look at it. Like the beginning, expect slightly more of an upfront, know, need to do some movement, find ways to fit it into your life, not fit your life into the movements.

and then as things go on, you can expect things to kind of get better. But, other thing is, I think this is important because we talked about, know, when you start to feel good as a time where flare ups start to happen, how are you treating or how you have that conversation? Like what happens when someone says they're starting to feel good? What are you telling them? How much do need to do at that point?

Joe LaVacca (23:05)
as opposed to, so they're on a good trajectory, maybe they're turning.

Joe Gambino (23:08)
They're like close to discharge. feeling pretty good. They're getting back to all the things that they want to do. Like they're 95 % recovered at that point.

Joe LaVacca (23:17)
And then they have a flare.

Joe Gambino (23:20)
No, they don't have a flare at that point. Just knowing that when people feel good, they start pushing their bodies more flares can happen. I think it's a kind of a nice conversation for us to have knowing that that's kind of like a common thing that I see. But just in general, if someone's like today, they self -report to 95 % recovered, they're doing all the things that they want. And then you're giving them a plan of action. Are you just going to like discharge them with some homework and say, do this every day? Like, how are you prescribing things for somebody at that point?

Joe LaVacca (23:46)
Yeah, I think when it comes to pain sort of diminishing, because most people will list pain as their biggest barrier as to why they're not doing things, or maybe pain is some of the sort of initial reason why we get some of the objective findings that we do. Whether that's range of motion on an assessment, whether that's muscle testing on an assessment, Pain will sort of make all of these numbers go down for our clients. So now, as pain diminishes,

Luckily, we can go back to those numbers and for clients and who've been to PT or who've worked with me, we have just sort of like a little standard bout of testing. It might be squatting, it might be pushups, it might be hanging from a bar, it might be doing a plank or maybe something a little bit more sport specific for you. It could be a lot of other things. But when your pain, quote unquote, feels better and you're 95 % back at it and you're ready to go again.

Well, let's go back and revisit some of these tests. Does your range of motion improve? Great, awesome. What about that strength test that we did? that's still pretty low compared to someone your age and activity level and desired goals that you wanna get back to. So while I'm glad that you feel better, I think that this is still a big piece of your recovery process. I'd still be progressively overloading this single leg squat.

this posterior rotator cuff exercise and I keep it in your program two to three times a week and you can put it anywhere I tell them if they already have a program if I'm not actually programming for them. Like you can put it in Monday as your warmup. You can put it in Wednesday with your superset of bicep curls. You can put it in as a cool down exercise on Saturday or Sunday if you're gonna go for a long Peloton ride or whatever. But I still think this finding or this quality

is worth building. And even if it doesn't prevent you from having pain long term, we still then know you have a better quad, you have a better hip, you have a better back, you have a better shoulder that can tolerate more things. And if it can tolerate more things, then the likelihood of maybe having those flares or pain returning is diminished by a certain margin. Does that answer that question?

Joe Gambino (26:09)
Yeah, I do think so. You know, I like that, you know, you're tying it back to something sustainable that makes sense in the assessment and tying it back into that person's goal. You know, that's kind of where it is, right? Like you want to be able to run without knee pain, but right now you can only run a mile and your knees bothered you, but everything else is really good, right? Like what kind of things can you do? Sure. Now it's two, three times a week, maybe specific tissue work that's working on things that are missing.

You can also intertwine into sessions or as warm -ups. So like I like to think of like if We're working on running what kind of things can we do from a movement perspective? That's going to prep that tissue for more running so we can do it right at the start of that right before you go for a run things that are gonna open up range of motion things are gonna load the painful area starting it into some plyometrics right so that your your Force absorption starting to happen there and then you can go in for your run and then we can use and one thing I love in this this these scenarios is

Now taking the exercises that you're trying to get back to and using them in the rehab environment. So using the pain guidelines, you're trying to get back to running. You're trying to get back to benching. You're trying get back to deadlifting. And you have this point where after that your back is so, so well, now we're going to start to build a volume, build up intensity, start to load those tissues in those areas where you feel okay, like right on that border of things starting to feel like they're not so good and letting those tissues adapt.

Joe LaVacca (27:08)
Right.

Joe Gambino (27:30)
with the exercise. So I think that's another way to start to look at it. Like how do we take these things now? If you're not doing that, there's always going to be a huge gap between the things that we do from a rehab perspective in clinic and the activities that you want to do. And you need to start to use activity in the rehab process in order to close that gap. Otherwise, there's no amount of loading that you can do in the gym that's going to replicate running except for.

running right you have to get specific at some point there's no mobility drills in the world that's going to you know help your body tolerate benching 225 pounds right if that's your that's your goal that's what you want to get back to right you can't load your infraspinatus with an exercise to that degree right or whatever the issue you find is so that's what I that's the only last thing I want to say there is kind of you know sure you have these things but now we can take the pieces of what you're trying to get to and use them

process.

Joe LaVacca (28:30)
Excellent. I think that's a great close. Thank you for your wisdom, Mr. Joe.

Joe Gambino (28:33)
All right, well.

Yes, yes, the Friday wisdom that we have coming today will be Wednesday wisdom when the podcast is is released. But when.

Joe LaVacca (28:42)
Yeah. Wednesday wisdom. Maybe that's our new clothes. Wednesday wisdom.

Joe Gambino (28:49)
Wednesday Wisdoms. like it. like it. Well, Joe, love you. Listeners love you. And if you made it this far into the episode, extra love for you.

Joe LaVacca (28:54)
Love you.