The Beyond Pain Podcast

Episode 19: Hyped about Hypermobility

• Par Four Performance • Episode 19

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Summary
In this episode, Joe Gambino and Joe LaVacca discuss when to push and when to pull back in training, particularly in relation to pain. They emphasize the importance of tolerable pain, maintaining form, and monitoring how pain resolves after a workout. They also discuss the concept of hypermobility and provide a test to determine if someone falls on the hypermobility spectrum. They caution against excessive stretching for hypermobile individuals and suggest focusing on strength training and end-range control exercises instead. They highlight the need to tie progress to specific goals or activities to assess improvement.

Takeaways
When training, it is important to listen to your body and determine when to push and when to pull back based on tolerable pain and maintaining form.

Pain resolution after a workout can be a good indicator of whether you pushed too hard or if your training was appropriate.

Hypermobility is a spectrum that can be determined through a series of tests, and excessive stretching is not recommended for hypermobile individuals.

For hypermobile individuals, focusing on strength training and end-range control exercises can be more beneficial than stretching.

Progress should be tied to specific goals or activities to assess improvement.




Joe Gambino (00:01.174)
Welcome back into the Beyond Pain podcast. I am one of your hosts, Joe Gambino, and I'm here with the lovely and good looking and fresh Joe Lavaca. He's right across the screen from me. You can find us on Instagram. I am at Joe Gambino, dpt, and Lavaca is at strength and motion underscore PT. And I'm actually having a really hard time with this intro because I haven't stood in a

Joe LaVacca (00:10.439)
Joe Gambino (00:28.054)
at all for podcast recording, I think is throwing me off a little bit, Joe.

Joe LaVacca (00:31.937)
Well, you just to give some, if this is the first episode people listen to, Joe is standing up because we just did a posture episode last week and it sparked his interest to just keep changing positions during the show. So we had a whole new look at Joe today. We actually see what's on the other side of the hat brim. I love it. Yeah. You got any stickers underneath there?

Joe Gambino (00:47.384)
Yeah.

That's right. I should wear it backwards today. No, no, think this one's stick, stickerless, hat. Stickerless is, that's correct. It is, and I think it's the only hat that I have without a sticker. It's 1000 % accurate. But yeah, it's back to the intro. So you can find us on Instagram, we love to connect. Please reach out. This show is on YouTube at cupsofjoe underscore PT. We still have not changed it.

Joe LaVacca (00:55.583)
Only stickers on the top. Stickerless! This might be one of the first Gambino hats without a sticker.

Joe Gambino (01:19.282)
And you can also find the show on Instagram, Beyond Pain Podcast there as well. And there is an application form if you are interested in working with us, please do so. And we're about to jump into our second week doing this segment, the question of the day. So if you do have questions, please feel free. You can send it to us by Instagram or wherever you want to reach out to us and we can certainly add them into this. But today's question of the day, comes from another one of my clients, Morden.

And the question is, how do you know when to keep pushing or when to pull back with your training? I'm assuming it's, you know, revolving in around pain, but just in general, maybe even not with pain. think we can talk about it in one of two ways. So when do we push in our training and when do we decide to pull back?

Joe LaVacca (02:07.111)
great question. I'm really liking the new segment so far. When I typically encourage people to think about sticking with a plan, and I'm going to say that's push forward. It's going to be dependent on first and foremost pain because that's probably what they're coming in to see us for. I'll typically go into that idea of what is tolerable. All right. Tolerable to me is a much better barometer than numbers.

because I don't know what a three is, I don't know what a six is, and I really have no way of really guiding people through that process. So I would say, if your pain is tolerable, that's a good start. If, when you're working out and you have rep one or mile one or minute one, and your form looks a certain way on rep one, mile one, minute one, well then, if your pain is tolerable,

Your form should stay the same. I shouldn't be able to see your pain in your movement. No one should be coming up to you in the gym or stopping their run, pulling their headphones out, being like, can we help you? Because you look terrible. So I want to make sure that stays consistent. And probably another little objective marker I'll tell people is, how's your breathing? Are we gasping? Are we holding our breath? Do you find that you're grunting?

These can be signs that maybe we're pushing through pain that is not tolerable. The next one is I think one that you've spoken about on the show before. How are you feeling when you wake up the next day? For people in pain, acute or chronic, I fully expect you are going to be moving and rehabbing, working out and waking up in pain because that is how you came into me.

So I do not think that there's any magical thing I'm going to do that's going to override that. Here's what I think is interesting about the next day pain or morning pain or stiffness. Does it resolve in 30 to 60 minutes? Does it gradually get better over the course of that first hour? If it doesn't, then maybe we want to look back at reprogramming some of these variables with reps and sets and maybe volume to some degree.

Joe LaVacca (04:33.025)
So that's where I would say big picture. try to guide people. maybe last thing I'll add is that it's really hard to then also get reacquainted sometimes with what you would expect soreness wise after a workout or after a run. So I think there may be a little bit more collaboration needed and back and forth needed to give you guys some nuance, but that's a, that's a big picture overview of what I would kind of guide people on day one.

Joe Gambino (05:04.14)
Yeah, I like that a lot. We would paint. I like the idea of tolerable pain being something for someone to kind of hold onto as far as, you know, something very, very measurable for them because sometimes people will say to me like, I don't know on my scale. Such a hard thing. I'm actually a big fan of scale. think if, you know, you know, people are usually pretty accurate with it because it is their scale. but there definitely are times and I'm not sure what the

I don't think I have like, if they say this to me, I know, but I think there's in an interaction with somebody, even virtually as we're having conversations, there are certain things that are said that will hint to me that their scale may not be accurate. They might be overly sensitive to their scale and they're like saying it's a six or seven, but they don't really, you know, I think we talked about this one episode when they give you these high numbers when they don't have that type of pain, it's almost like a call for help.

So if they're giving me these really high numbers and maybe they don't really understand the scale or they're just not too sure because they've been in pain for so long that it's it feels a little higher to them. There are things that will help me kind of understand like, okay, well, you know, they're telling me it's a six, but I have a feeling that that six is tolerable for them, right? Maybe on another scale, right? Like it could be a four. I'm not going to change their scale, but maybe six is tolerable. I really like what you said there, Joe.

Joe LaVacca (06:02.901)
Sure, yeah.

Joe Gambino (06:30.766)
So now we can maybe work with the six and we can toy with the six and then we can see what the response is. So just like you said, I look at a 24 hour window. I also look at a 48 hour window and I look to see how things are going. And if there's nothing, no pain, no soreness, no whatever, you feel great, automatic progression. If you have no pain, there's no issues. You can increase whatever you can progressive overload, however you want. If there is pain, usually tell people, not to make it more than 10 % at a time and only change one variable either.

Intensity, the reps, so the volume changes, but only for one exercise or like a really, really small change so you can catch, okay, hey, I made this small change, felt good. Next session, add another change, felt good. Added another change, ooh, little sore, some pain. Low level, fit within the pain guidelines. Okay, great, we found a good spot. Maybe we should stay here and let the tissues acclimate. We're not gonna progress it. So small changes allow you to.

Joe LaVacca (07:16.339)
Yeah.

Joe Gambino (07:28.024)
because if you make a whole bunch of changes and there's a flare up, you have no idea what caused it. So I like small changes there. There is probably one caveat I will leave, because tolerable pain is in general perfectly fine for both of us. Let's come across clear from our conversation on the podcast. I do think that there are times and why we should be paying attention to how you feel is because there are times where you can be working through low level pain, but it can still make things.

worse or not better. So typically, you know, if we're toying with pain, you should see some sort of change in the benefit after some time, right? If we're going through the rehab process correctly. I've seen it and I have someone currently that I'm working with where, yeah, I'm not working through too much pain. It's only ones and twos and ones and twos. And all of sudden, as we're kind of going through our reassessment process, movement is looking like a little bit worse and their pain is like.

taking up overall. So even though they're not pushing through pain, that constant low level discomfort, you know, throughout the workouts and their mobility work was actually becoming a point where it was irritating. So that's why we have to look at the trends as well, not just like in this moment, because if that's the case, then you have to respect pain a little bit more than someone who just has chronic pain and they're just kind of afraid to move and we need to really kind of push through some of that pain to get them over the hump. So I think there's,

Sometimes working through pain isn't always the number one thing for us to go through. So I just throw that out there real quick.

Joe LaVacca (08:56.897)
Yeah, I think that's an interesting point. Multiple clients right now sort of are wrestling with this idea of when to push and when not to, and trying to understand like when a flare happens or when it doesn't. And it's really hard to predict because flares or increases in pain are so common. And I think up to 89 % of people with low back pain will experience a flare.

Joe Gambino (08:58.572)
Thank

Joe LaVacca (09:24.017)
particularly within their first three months of rehab, which is why maybe so many people abandoned programs. So I guess with that being the case and us both having like similar rules of like, hey, if you're working through a one and two and one and two, which is what I always tell my client, and then we see a sudden spike, how then would we kind of make sense of that for them? Or how have you made sense for that of, because then we can't go much lower than a one or two, or will you really encourage them to really seek pain free things at that

Joe Gambino (09:53.368)
So at that point in this particular situation, it was a seek of pain free and working through it. And so the way I described it to him is like, don't just like pain is not just the only thing we look at, right? We're looking at functioning and movement, right? So we had an assessment and we looked at movement and we did things on our call that reduced pain. So we're just gonna like, I was like double down on this. We have movements that make you feel good. We're gonna just do this like a thousand times a day.

Joe LaVacca (09:57.889)
Mm

Joe Gambino (10:20.904)
And the only goal right now for these next couple of weeks is to bring down pain. And that worked, right? We brought down pain. Now we're back to kind of like exploring some pain, but we have very clear goals. These are the ranges of motion in particular that we're trying to desensitize. If these things are feeling worse, you need to back off. If these things are getting better, then we can keep pushing and we can keep going the route and the pain is not going to be an issue. So we're now tying pain to a movement.

right, that is like clear. we can like, you know, like in this case, right, like the last thing we working at is if his arm was at his side and he was to externally rotate his shoulder, he was like barely doing it. He was like, yeah, that's like a three or four level pain. So he's been doing ones and twos with his like workouts. We're back to pressing to some degree. He said he was able to hang from a bar for the first time in a long time for 10 seconds with no pain. And then when I asked him, like, okay, when you do that now, how is it? He's like, yeah, I can do it. No problem. There's no pain. So at that point now,

playing around with these ones and twos is perfectly fine because those things are getting better. Where in the beginning, the moods we were trying to improve were getting worse and pain was starting to pick up. So was baseline pain was going up. So now I think when we can tie it to something, A, it's more tangible to that person, but we're also now taking pain and function of putting them together. So instead of just looking at one thing, now we're looking at two things. And if one thing is here, but the other one's getting better, perfect. I think once we start looking at it that way, it becomes more.

beneficial for that person.

Joe LaVacca (11:50.689)
Yeah, finding that objectivity is really key. I'll often say, how do know you're safe? How do know you're okay? And the analogy I kept using, which has been 50 -50 hit or miss, which disappoints me, is the inception analogy. If you guys have seen the movie Inception, they have that token to know when they're back in reality and not dreaming anymore. So for Leo, has this been the top? Maybe I've said this in previous weeks, but...

I do like this idea of what is something tangible that you can hold onto? Maybe it's a movement, maybe it's a thought, maybe it's sleep, maybe it's this, maybe it's that. But how do you know you're safe to move forward? Having that token has been individual for each client, but I think finding it is really, really important. Because for a few Pilates teachers I've worked with recently are yoga instructors with maybe some of the topics that we're gonna talk about today. Restoring flexion.

Right? With their back pain or their hip pain was really important to them. Can they touch their toes? Okay, fine. That's going to be our test. So once we restored toe touch, if there were any questions about, should I keep pushing? Is this too much? Is this too little? It was like, Hey, just check your toe touch. Right? When you came in and you were really flared up, you didn't have your toe touch. When we did a couple of things, we were able to restore it. We were being able to maintain it. So if you're kind of questioning it,

What's your toe touch look like? okay, it's still there, it's safe. Yeah, okay, cool. Let's do another couple of reps or maybe keep it here. Get more data for a week or two and see what happens versus, hey, you know what? Ooh man, that feels real tight. I think I only have to stop at mid shin. Okay, well then this is something that definitely is sensitizing. Let's get ahead of it. Let's stop it, modify it now. So yeah, that objectivity I think is really important.

Joe Gambino (13:31.295)
Yeah, I love that. And I think really the, what we're saying here is that if you have something that feels somewhat sketchy and you're like, there's something kind of going on here. You're either going to kind of hold where you are, or if it gets really bad, you're going to want to back off a little bit. And if nothing's really bugging you and you're good to just, you know, keep putting on the gas pedal on your body's going to let you know when you're, when you kind of started to push it. And then you just, you know, reevaluate now and you may be fine. Like, like I liked the term breeding of perceived symptoms.

Right, so we're trying to find a set of using exertion, we're using symptoms. So as you're starting to build up, you're like, ooh, at this volume, my symptoms come on. Well, now we can play with that and we can use progressive overload protocols around that symptom so we can build up tissue tolerance. And that's really what you're working at. And I like to, when I'm explaining to somebody, right, we're looking at how do we start to...

Joe LaVacca (14:12.737)
to him.

Joe Gambino (14:24.438)
use the actual exercises, even though it's a fitness thing, how are we using that as a tool? It's like an extension of the rehab process, so to speak.

Joe LaVacca (14:31.947)
Yeah, I like that.

Joe Gambino (14:35.658)
All right. Well, that took up a half our episode and we'll spend the other half talking about hyper versus hyper hypo mobility. We touched on this a little bit last episode with the question of the day, and we've decided to dive this into a full episode. So let's let you jump into it here. Why don't we just start with a little quick definition, Joe, and then we'll talk about how maybe some strategies that we utilize with each of these populations to help them reach whatever goals that they have.

Joe LaVacca (15:02.431)
Yeah, I think the question from last episode centered a little bit more on hypermobility. So maybe we'll start there. The hypermobility spectrum is quite broad. There could be lots of connective tissue issues that our clients are dealing with. Probably one of the most common ones that people have heard of is Ehlers -Danlos syndrome or things like that. These are typically genetic.

Joe Gambino (15:06.935)
Mm -hmm.

Joe LaVacca (15:28.041)
You probably have a family history of one or more of them. Some people even have a history of their parents maybe having fibromyalgia or, you know, sort of like some sort of like genetic predisposition to pain. So these are just things that are on your radar. There's a, there is a test for hypermobility that you can all do with us while you're listening or watching at home. There are a series of tests that you would get scored on. So if I kind of suspect that clients are hypermobile,

then I'll put them through some of these tests and just see how they do. So test one, and Mr. Gambino, can partake here too, is gonna be looking at your pinkies. So if we lay our pinkies nice and flat and I pull up on my pinky, does that pinky go to 90 degrees or greater? Especially greater than 90 degrees. We're thinking of potentially one point for a laxity scale.

Now mine pretty much stop at 90. So I might be borderline here, right? But if your finger bends back past 90 degrees on the pinky test, rest assured that is one point for each hand. Now the next one I can definitely do, that's going to be taking my thumb and reaching it towards my forearm. So I might be borderline on the pinky one, but I can very easily get my thumb.

to my forearm. So that means when your wrist is bending, I'm gonna over pressure my thumb, get that to the forearm. I definitely have at least two points there. Second test is your elbows. Do your elbows hyper extend? So if you keep your elbows straight out, if that angle increases at your elbow by about 10 degrees, that's another point on each side. looks like he's got some pretty straight elbows, no points scored there. Actually, Joe's got no points so far. I might have four, maybe two.

Definitely two, maybe four. And then this last couple are going to be in standing. So if you are standing and you bend your knees back as far as possible, just like the elbow test, if it bends backwards more than 10 degrees, again, you're to give yourself another point for each side. Very last one, which I don't think Joe Gimino is going to get a point for, is the forward bend. Can you keep your knees straight and...

Joe LaVacca (17:55.477)
get your palms on the floor. Knees have to stay straight here and then you get your palm on the floor, okay? So now all of those points added up would total to nine. If you are an adult listening to this show, if you scored a four or higher, you might be on the spectrum of hypermobility. If you are a child, the points are six before puberty and I think maybe five as you get a little bit older.

So that's the test. How did you guys do? Are we on the spectrum here of hypermobility? But the key thing here is if I do sense this, I'm probably going to pull people back from this idea of stretching, probably partly because they already do it a lot. And what I was talking to Joe about when I'm thinking about this with you guys as clients is rubber bands.

right, that we're trying to pull on. Most people are going to try to think about pulling on a rubber band like their quad or their hamstring or their calf. And that's wonderful. The thing with hypermobility though, is that there's another rubber band that we have to take up tension on before we can get to the band of your muscles. And that's the bands around your joints. So if you are one of those people that might be on the mobility spectrum and you have your spouse or your clinician move you around and they're just like, whoa.

can just keep going here right there's just no ending in sight I can just keep bending you in all positions I'm probably not gonna encourage you guys to stretch at all and the reason being is because we would have to take up so much passive tension on your joint first typically leading to a lot of sheer if your joints are already very mobile adding sheer is not gonna be one of the most pleasant things for joints

particularly if they are part of your pain process. And it's just not worth sort of like trying to get you set up in a million different positions to try to stretch a tissue that may or may not even be tight to begin with. So for you guys, like I mentioned in the episode before, this is where I'm more of a proponent of manual therapy. This is maybe where I'm more of a proponent of taping. This is maybe where I'm more of a proponent of maybe cupping and things like that, right?

Joe LaVacca (20:17.877)
just different things to alleviate your pain in your system and potentially promote different levels of awareness using different tools. So that's sort of my little hypermobility intro in a nutshell, What do you like about that? And this is the Brayton score, something you use a lot.

Joe Gambino (20:38.982)
I'm actually, I was going say I'm really glad that you brought that up and I have a question for you based off of it. So, you know, I use it when I'm assessing people and what I've found is that a lot of people don't even realize that they fall on the hypermobile scale. So I'll run through this, like, you know, I may see something like when I'm doing like the multi -segment deflection or the toe touch test and all of sudden the person folds in half, you know, like you're folding up a chair and the palms are hitting flat on the ground. I'm like, that's impressive. I wish I can do that.

Joe LaVacca (20:42.923)
Hmm. At least.

Joe LaVacca (20:52.854)
Mm

Joe Gambino (21:07.426)
You know, you'd be proud of me, Joss, I was to touch my toes with straight knees today. So I know on my history, you'll be proud. But regardless, right? So going back to the point, know, I'm always educating people and they're like, wow, I had no idea I was on the hypermobility scale. So my question is to you, if somebody has no idea that they're on the scale, what should they be?

Joe LaVacca (21:09.823)
All right, there we go.

Joe Gambino (21:32.606)
Looking for or what should they be thinking about to like maybe hint to themselves? They're like, maybe this is something that I might have

Joe LaVacca (21:40.065)
Well, I mean, think on top of the beighton would just sort of be, well, what's in your current programming? And for, again, many of them, there are probably a lot of stretches just because those are easy. get it from a, from a, even a socioeconomic standpoint, like I can teach you a stretch and it costs you no money to do that at home. All you need is a floor and you need to get down, you need to find a chair or just like get a yoga mat or something or a blanket. Right. So there's no cost to you. So I get, I get the allure of stretching.

And I get the allure of keeping things simple and keeping these very affordable and empowering for clients to do. However, if you're still doing stretching and you're stretching and you're stretching and you're stretching. Well, if there's nowhere else for you to go with your stretch, let's say, you know, you're doing a figure four stretch and your knee is already into your chest. You're doing a 90, 90 stretch and you're, basically laying on top of the leg in front of you. You're doing a hamstring stretch and you know, the leg is pulling up past 90 degrees or you're.

Your thigh is even starting to touch your belly when your leg is straight. Well, again, my point to a lot of people is, where do you want to go with those? Right? Where do you keep progressing? There's no progress unless you start turning yourself inside out. And I don't think that that's going to be reasonable. So I'll have people think about that scale and then reflect on their current program. What's missing? For a lot of people, it's strength training.

for even more people, it's, well, I'm not even strengthening in an end range position. I'm still going to the gym and I'm doing my squats and my deadlifts and my bench press. And those are all wonderful. And those are the keys and pillars of your strength and conditioning program. However, if you fall on this spectrum, you're probably going to need to do a little bit more accessory work into these end ranges. So are you doing those? And maybe we can touch on those in a minute.

I think other than that, again, I'm going to go dive into family history too. You know, what did your mom do? What'd your dad do? what, what sports did you like to play as a kid growing up? A lot of people with hypermobility tend to gravitate towards things like swimming. They tend to gravitate towards things like dancing, not all the time, obviously, but this is like what your body's good at. Right. So gymnastics is another one. Right. So if you're exemplifying your strengths, we should be hearing that very consistently.

Joe LaVacca (24:04.161)
throughout your story and then even like what you were good at growing up as a kid.

Joe Gambino (24:08.716)
Yeah, I think what I would say here if someone has like no idea why or if they fall on this spectrum is, know, do you find yourself like very flexible in comparison to other people? Right. So maybe not your family because there is a genetic component of things, but like you can put palms on the ground if anything you do like you're when you stretch something that you feel like you have a pretty good amount of range of motion, whether you feel tight or not. That's I think a whole different thing. That's kind of what I want to talk about real quick is that people who are on

the hyper mobility perspective. They feel tight, maybe all the time. Some of these people, even when they're standing, they feel tight. And then they do these stretching, right? And then they feel this stretch at their very, very end ranges, which makes sense because anybody would, when you bring yourself towards the end range, like, I'm so tight. But meanwhile, they're doing the straight leg raise, you're stretching their hamstring, and their foot's right next to their head. It's not a...

Joe LaVacca (25:04.735)
Yeah, feeding themselves grapes with their toes or something.

Joe Gambino (25:07.25)
It's like you're not, there's nothing tight about this except for the way that you feel. So you can't use like your stiffness levels or your tightness levels as a barometer for whether you're hypo or hypermobile. It has to be looked at from like how much flexibility do you actually have? And when you are doing some of these things, do you feel like you actually have a good amount of range of motion at those joints, but you still feel a certain way?

What are your thoughts on that, Joe?

Joe LaVacca (25:36.501)
No, I think it's great. mean, we talked a lot about the objectivity of connecting yourself to something with pain or knowing when to push. So connecting yourself to something more objective than a feeling, particularly when that feeling is likely incorrect, is going to fit right into what we were saying and become even more valuable. And I think the...

The big part here too is there's a lot of this, well, okay, well, we have to prove it too. So if we're going to scale something back, the same way like with stretching or anything else that we would pick, well, the same way we were seeing like, okay, well, should we push forward with an exercise? Well, how are we gonna know we're improving with someone with hypermobility? Is it that feeling of stiffness or tightness? Again, I don't know because when I brought up...

proprioception versus interoception. And proprioception is just your awareness of your body in space, right? So like kind of like big picture. And then interoception is like all the stuff inside. So if I meditate and I say real quiet, I can hear myself breathe and I can hear my heartbeat. That's sort of like an example of interoception, but so is this feeling of tightness. So when we keep coming back to this idea of, you know, these kind of big picture, big picture things like hypermobility, you know, is

genetic, it's neurological. There's so many different influences within the type of connective tissue, right? We wouldn't want to pulling on things that can become more and more sensitized when eventually your body is probably going to have an equal and opposite reaction. There's nowhere else for you to go and pull on. When nerves get sensitive, they don't love to get pulled on. When joints get sensitive, they don't love sheer.

And then here we are maybe exemplifying the two things that could be contributing to someone's pain by doing all these end range stretches, which is why I think isometrics are a much better entry point for people. You know, finding people who can influence you into that FRC system that Grayson Strange was talking about so much that Joe and I practice, you we need those sort of end range control ideas rather than maybe some end range stretching or more expansion ideas.

Joe Gambino (27:57.324)
Yeah, I like that a lot. then just on your point about like progress, right? Like how do you know, like, especially in this population, like progress is happening. I think you need to tie it to goals or something in their life that they're trying to get back to. If you're just looking at like just your tightness alone in like a vacuum or just your ability to do like one movement in a vacuum.

very hard to, know if progress is being made. So you have to tie it back to something. So whether it's like, can I get into this yoga position? Like if that's something you want to get to her, if you like strength training on this, you know, you you wanted to see this happen in the gym. I had somebody who was kind of sounding like we didn't do an assessment. haven't gotten there, but she sounded like she was on that hyper mobility ish perspective and like pole dancing. Right. But she felt like, like she felt like she was really straining.

to get into some positions at like, you when she's getting, don't know whether it was her end ranges or not, but like, those are the things that you want to see correlate, right? Like, okay, you're doing these things in the gym to stretch or to load or to strength train to feel better, but you should see a carry over to the actual things that you want to do. And I think that if you tie it to something, something objective going back to that, then you'll know if you're making progress or not. But if it's just like a very general, I'm just doing this for health or I just want to feel a little less stiff and there's nothing to tie to.

There's no, which is not wrong, right? You're just then exercising to be healthier. You're just looking to see if you can, you know, it's almost more performance driven when you start to attach it to something.

Joe LaVacca (29:28.341)
Yep, absolutely. I like that. It's like maybe we could do a part two of this with more hypo mobility in mind. But I think that that was a good sort of recap on our hyper mobility ideas. What do you think?

Joe Gambino (29:42.826)
I think that's it. think we'll leave it at where it is today. So that will be the end of today's episode. And Joe, I love you. Listeners, we love you. And if you made it this far into the episode, extra love for you.

Joe LaVacca (29:51.36)
I love you.